Follow

Snikket is a new XMPP/Jabber-based decentralised FOSS messenger service. You can follow at:

➡️ @snikket_im

The official website is snikket.org

It aims to make XMPP into a more viable alternative to Whatsapp etc by providing consistency in design and terminology.

(It's sort of how Mastodon made ActivityPub more mainstream, by using consistency to make it clear the instances are part of one network.)

@snikket_im

By the way, Snikket is run by @mattj who also founded the Prosody project.

@FediFollows @snikket_im wtf was ist das ein conversations fork mit neuem marketing?

@witti @snikket_im

It's more than that, they're trying to do standardised forks for every platform, including clients and instance hosting software, so that new users will see it is a single network.

(They also have a managed instance hosting service .)

@FediFollows
So I guess the work from Prosody that was shut down for being "unmaintainable complicated" (medium.com/netresearch/how-we-) is getting spun into something cleaner and easier to self-host, and XMPP clients are being created that implement a guaranteed minimum set of XEPs (where the minimum set is guaranteed to be at least as large as the Conversations app had)?

@witti @snikket_im @mattj

@aaravchen @FediFollows @witti @snikket_im the words "unmaintable" or "complicated" don't appear in the blog post you linked. It's rather light on specifics actually.

I can tell you there are many people running Prosody very happily, from individuals to organizations. See also blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospec

But yes, Snikket aims to make it easier. That's possible because it is hyper-focused on a specific use case (personal messaging). The people using Prosody for IoT wouldn't be happy with Snikket 🙂

@aaravchen @FediFollows @witti @snikket_im And you're mostly right about XEPs/Conversations. But it's not strictly true that "what Conversations supports" is our guiding star. It may be the case that we remove/disable certain things that Conversations supports, if we consider it unnecessary/confusing for our use case.

It's also not all about XEPs. UX is a big part of the project. Consistency across clients. All this stuff gets documented at docs.modernxmpp.org/

@mattj

Do you collaborate with / inspire yourself from Blabber?
They already did a good job in improving the UX of Conversations.

@mattj
I don't know much about Prosody, the first references I heard were here, on the Conversation app page, and the linked post noting that Prosody was shutting down their IM XMPP server (?) after deciding on Matrix instead. I guess I misunderstood what parts were being shut down. I thought he (whoever the author is) was saying all XMPP hosting was being shut down rather than just their hosted instance of IM XMPP.
@FediFollows @witti @snikket_im

@FediFollows @snikket_im thanks for the info, I'll try.. I'm especially curious about the out-of-the-box video/voice calls, because that decentralized alternative which will offer all these features - but simply - only can succeed..

@FediFollows Thanks for helping spread the word about Snikket, and the perfect summary of the project 🙂

We have several exciting announcements planned in the coming weeks! Between the recent progress on the project and #WhatsApp's crazy announcement, it feels like the time is right for a big shift in how people think about communication.

Every new group of people self-hosting their own mini messaging service is a win for the internet and online privacy. Exciting times!

@mattj

Yeah, this feels like Whatsapp's own "Cambridge Analytica" moment, there are definitely more people looking for alternatives.

@FediFollows
Сервер на lua. Ещё бы на питоне сделали.
Докер в инструкции.
"Приватность" и "безопасность" в каждом абзаце много раз.
Клиент только под мобильные платформы. Okay.jpg
Хипстеры опять прокисшего смузи перепили?

@snikket_im

@FediFollows @snikket_im @radjah ну, в отличие от пистона луа имеет крошечный футпринт (там меньше двух мегабайт на всё про всё при установке) и он на порядки быстрее пистона. холтя тоже скриптятина, тащемта. но более грамотно сделанная.

@iron_bug
Всё компенсирует десктопный клиент на электроне. Вон ниже пишут, что сначала будет web.
@FediFollows @snikket_im

@MrClon It's Jabber/XMPP. You have plethora of clients for many platforms, they don't have to be snikket-branded.

@brie so, what benefit i get for all this snikket? For desktop users it's just another XMPP server?

@MrClon @brie

The benefit isn't technical, it's userbase. If Snikket can convince more people to join XMPP, then current XMPP users will have more people to communicate with on the network.

It's like Mastodon made a cleaner and easier way to use the Fediverse, which drew millions of users to it, which benefitted people on non-Mastodon Fediverse instances too.

@MrClon Currently we're prioritizing mobile, yes. After that we'll probably add a web client, and later maybe a native desktop client.

Each of these takes time because we test each feature and make sure there is full compatibility with the other Snikket software. Often this means development work.

Obviously you are free to use any XMPP client with a Snikket server that you want. We just can't guarantee the same level of quality. Any actively developed modern client should work 🙂

@snikket_im sounds nice. I'll be waiting for web client

@FediFollows @snikket_im Just try to make the notifications wake the app on iOS. All preceding apps have failed to do so. That's all we're missing for XMPP to be a viable mainstream alternative nowadays.

@tagomago @FediFollows Spent a bunch of time the past few weeks on iOS push notifications. Watch this space 😉

@snikket_im @tagomago

ChatSecure notifications work on iOS, at least for me. (However it has other problems like crashing a lot on the latest iOS version.)

@FediFollows @snikket_im Notifications work on iOS for several apps, but they won't wake the app if it's closed/idle for some time.

@tagomago @FediFollows @snikket_im siskin notifications work, even when the iphone is idle for hours. siskin also worked out group chat push notifications (which is broken on monal) by using MIX.

problem is no android client supports MIX.

@joshim @FediFollows @snikket_im Not in my experience. At least not when the app is eventually closed, phone rebooted, etc., which is unacceptable for this kind of service.

@tagomago @FediFollows @snikket_im i agree that dodgy notifications is unacceptable. been using siskin for a few months now without it dropping any notifications, although i should say that i've been using a tigase account (sure.im).

@joshim
Yes, we're basing the Snikket iOS client on Siskin and have been implementing Tigase's extensions for Siskin into Prosody modules to ensure reliability.

Discussions are in progress about what needs to happen to get these extensions standardized so we can see them universally supported: github.com/tigase/tigase-xeps/
@tagomago @FediFollows

@snikket_im @tagomago @FediFollows looks encouraging. so what do you think about MIX on the android side? Having asked around, aside from devs of kaidan im (and of course stork im), none of the android developers seem all that interested. not surprising, given android doesn't need it, but without it the work tigase have done won't amount to much.

@joshim @FediFollows @snikket_im

>although i should say that i've been using a tigase account (sure.im)

Thanks, probably that's the key.

@FediFollows @snikket_im Interesting! How does it differ from Matrix, is there any showcase comparison for two?

@vazub
They're the same architecture, but XMPP uses an extensible XML communication while Matrix uses an extensible JSON.
As far as I can tell, they're intended to do the same thing but are just implemented with different technologies.

@vazub
I should also point out that there's a pretty well known Matrix-to-XMPP bridge called Bifrost (though I can't speak to it's quality or compatibility between surface-similar features)

@aaravchen Thanks, makes more sense now. Is there any inherent benefit to XML that would justify this development?

@vazub @aaravchen The big advantage of XML that XMPP uses extensively is its concept of "namespaces".

By using namespaces it's possible to extend and evolve the protocol over time, while maintaining backwards compatibility (as long as you want to). XMPP is 20 years old (!) and would be totally irrelevant now if it didn't have the ability to adapt to new technology and communication styles.
(cont...)

@vazub @aaravchen
The core XMPP protocol was standardized at the IETF (the organization that develops and maintains many internet protocols such as HTTP and email) in 2004 and updated in 2011. But most of the protocol changes happen through documented extensions known as "XEPs".

New extensions are developed by the community and published at xmpp.org/extensions/

Due to XML namespaces, these extensions don't break existing software when they start getting used on the XMPP network.
(cont...)

@vazub @aaravchen

To avoid chaos and confusion, each year updated guidance is published about which XEPs should be implemented by e.g. IM clients: xmpp.org/about/compliance-suit

The whole process is managed by the XMPP Standards Foundation (XSF), which is governed by community members: xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-

@mattj
This was so much more helpful than my 2 hours of trying to detangle the contentious arguments from biased enthusiasts' posts.

@mattj @vazub @aaravchen Matrix has the same concept of namespacing in JSON, though, so in the end it really doesn’t matter much.

@js @mattj @aaravchen That is what I am afraid of. The biggest challenge for me is to pitch the use of alternative messengers to my friends, and having virtually similar solutions to the same issue is a tough sell in terms of what option to suggest.

@vazub @mattj @aaravchen The Matrix experience is a lot more polished, since Matrix was designed for connection-less from the start, which works better for mobile, especially iOS. XMPP has extensions to work around XMPP being connection oriented, but that still has many problems in practice and the Matrix experience is a lot more polished. Configuring push notifications is done Server side in Matrix and works well and a huge pain point in XMPP, so MUCs + Mobile aren’t fun.

@vazub @mattj @aaravchen Also the client landscape on iOS for XMPP is pretty bad. Recommending XMPP right now to an iOS user is a way to make sure they won’t try it again in the future and might be averse to trying any other messengers you might recommend in the future.

@FediFollows @snikket_im hm, mobile client for Android looks EXACTLY like Conversations. Is it fork?

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Mastodon

This is a brand new server run by the main developers of the project as a spin-off of mastodon.social 🐘 It is not focused on any particular niche interest - everyone is welcome as long as you follow our code of conduct!